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Applemask
Dragonwrath impossible for 10 man guilds? #3(1)Category: US Blizzard ForumGeneralSeptember-8-2011 8:20 AM PDT (6 years ago) Go to Blizzard forum post
Continued from:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3123246109 - #1
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3123036188 - #2

A bit of math for the front page:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0An699vGZwDtZdHVzVWhIYnhqQmxfaTZYQUsyRk1qNWc&hl=en_US#gid=0

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3123036188?page=1#8

We didn't particularly want a lot of these items in circulation, so that's partially intended. We really do want to keep legendary weapons legendary, and Dragonwrath ended up being more readily available than we were comfortable with.

Nonetheless, we should have recognized that the completion rate was faster than we wanted, and taken action, sooner.


I don't think that's the point most (reasonable) people are trying to argue, though. Every single legendary churned out to date has come from 25 man raids. Some have 1, nearly 2; some have 2, nearly 3.

10 man-focused raids have zero. There are literally no 10 man raids with a finished legendary. The furthest-progressed ones are just starting the Essences grind (last week or this week) and if those guilds were killing 7/7 heroic, on the previous drop rates, at best they'd have their first legendary by the beginning of October. As well, with the Cinders drop-rates, those same guilds clearing 7/7H would still not begin the Essences portion of their second legendary until 2-3 weeks after finishing their first.

It's all well and good to want to stymie the flood of legendaries in the market and no one's arguing it inexcusable to nerf 25-man drop rates (though some are understandably put out that it took this long to ninja in said nerf, well after the best guilds have already finished 2) to accommodate this desire. The Sturm und Drang you're seeing is purely because the nerf impacted 10-man raids as well, in a way that doesn't jive with the reasoning of "too many legendaries spoil the raid". 10-mans don't have any legendaries to spoil the proverbial soup!

So that's the concern. It isn't that you shouldn't fix drop rates; it's that you should fix them in the raid level that's actually causing the issue.


[Continuation post borrowed from Texaporte]
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Daxxarri
Dragonwrath impossible for 10 man guilds? #3(421)September-8-2011 1:19 PM PDT (6 years ago) Go to Blizzard forum post
I don't think that's the point most (reasonable) people are trying to argue, though. Every single legendary churned out to date has come from 25 man raids. Some have 1, nearly 2; some have 2, nearly 3.


That's another issue, though it has less to do with drop rates and more to do with how the quest can reasonably be completed. We came up with a "parallelization" concept where a player could be on phase 3 of making Dragonwrath, while another raider in the same group could be on phase 2. We thought that would feel better for the players involved, and it did, but more because they were getting their staves faster than for any other reason. The real problem with this idea is that it made it very difficult to balance the time investment it takes to create a staff. The first staff might take x amount of time to create, but then subsequent staves could potentially come out the door a lot faster.

Legendaries aren't very legendary if 20% of the raiding population is carrying them -- never mind the ripple effects that their presence can have on game balance in PvE and PvP. Ultimately, 'parallelization' made a too powerful item, too easy to get, too quickly. In short, it was a mistake that we regret, and one we won't be repeating in the future. It also left us with a situation that we needed to address, though, which is why we nerfed the quest item drop rates to begin with.

All of that is merely by way of explaining how we arrived at this point. The heart of the issue for many of you has been 10-player raid drop rates and I’d like to take a moment to thank those of you who provided clear, constructive feedback in these threads and elsewhere. It’s been really valuable during our deliberations and helped us arrive at a decision that we think will address our concerns and yours.

We’ve decided to revert the drop rate change for 10-player heroic Firelands completely. We’ll also be slightly buffing the drop rates in 10-player normal. In the end, we should get the following results:

    • 25-player heroic has 44% lower drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.
    • 25-player normal remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
    • 10-player heroic remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
    • 10-player normal has 33% higher drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.

We plan to hotfix the new rates into place as soon as possible, and we should see them in-place pre-raid this evening barring unforeseen complications.
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Daxxarri
Dragonwrath impossible for 10 man guilds? #3(462)September-8-2011 1:41 PM PDT (6 years ago) Go to Blizzard forum post
I guess Blizzard is admitting that the people who were saying 25 is harder than 10 man were wrong.

I mean, it was obvious, but it's nice to have some confirmation.


The decision wasn't made based on the relative difficulty of 25-player vs. 10-player raids. It was made purely respective to how quickly staves were being constructed.

So, this isn't confirmation of that argument one way or another.
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Daxxarri
Dragonwrath impossible for 10 man guilds? #3(472)September-8-2011 1:45 PM PDT (6 years ago) Go to Blizzard forum post
I rather like the concept, but not because we're getting staves faster, but more because you're not sitting on your hands for months waiting for your chance. Instead, you get to participate, you get to track the progress of your fellow casters while you're working on your own stage, etc. Now, I can understand why you wouldn't be happy with guilds churning out staves every other week, but the concept is really nice. Rather than abandoning it, I hope you're able to adapt it in the future to work as intended.


While we can see the advantages (we did originally implement it, after all), the disadvantages involved in balancing Legendary items availability will probably preclude us from making use of this particular system again. Adapting it probably isn't worth the time and effort required to tinker with it.
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Daxxarri
Dragonwrath impossible for 10 man guilds? #3(485)September-8-2011 1:49 PM PDT (6 years ago) Go to Blizzard forum post

I swear, everything about your content lately is not about "how can we make this fun or unique?", it's "how can we drag this out until the next content update?"


Hrm. Like what?